Connecting your work and personal values | Season 2, Episode 4

This month, the podcast team discussed the sometimes difficult process of connecting your career and personal values. We interviewed Sophie Stevens [Social Development Direct], Rachel Levitan [HIAS], and Martha Flynn [Equal Measures 2030] on how they got to a place in their career that also matches their values, what to do if your career is actively opposed to those values and how you can also achieve those values outside of work.

If you’d like to support the work of WiFP, please consider donating at Paypal via www.paypal.me/lmgoulet or becoming a patron on Patreon at www.patreon.com/womeninforeignpolicy.Cheery Monday Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)

Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License
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Episode Transcript

Ashley: Hi, and welcome to this episode of the Women and Foreign Policy podcast. This month we are talking about how best to make your career choices align with the values you hold. And that is a really interesting conversation to have sort of, both as the beginning of your career and continuously as you move through your career. During this conversation we’re going to talk a bit about the different ways the realization that these things aren’t aligned might manifest. I’m really interested in this month personally, but also because I think it is really useful for people who are just starting out, to realize there are a range of options around this. For instance, you might think that work is just work and what you do from 9-5 does not have to be the most fulfilling part of your life and that is totally valid. You might also think that if you have to work 40 hours or more a week, you better be getting fulfilled in every way in your life and that’s also really valid. All of these are good options and are why we wanted to talk to experienced women in a variety of fields who have dealt with these problems and these questions and have gotten their own answers. We wanted to make sure we talked to people who had differing views on these ideas, so you don’t have to feel that you’re the only one who has felt some way or thought something. Without further ado, I’m going to let these really interesting and really compelling women introduce themselves.

Martha Flynn: Hi I’m Martha Flynn. I’m the Policy and Advocacy Advisor with Equal Measures 2030 and they are a cross-sector partnership who are working to promote gender equality by making sure that data and evidence is in the hands of women’s rights activists. I have a really loving role in the organization where I manage a portfolio of grants that go to women’s rights organizations using data to hold their governments accountable. Before working here I worked with organizations like Human Rights Watch, Mercy Corps and Girl Effect that generally involves focus on women’s rights and often with it a discipline of advocacy. But, also have worked in roles including campaigns, partnerships, comms and marketing. So, a whole broad church.

Rachel Levitan: My name is Rachel Levitan, and I'm Vice President for International Programs with HIAS, which is a global refugee organization based in the U.S, but with programs in 14 different countries around the world.

Sophie Stevens: My name is Sophie Stevens. I work mainly in the international development side of global affairs sort of work. I've been doing that for just over 10 years. So I have a degree in International Relations and languages and then I did a Master's after that in London on development policy, and economics. I've specialized mainly in security, justice and peace building since the kind of early years of my career, particularly working for consulting organizations that support development actors to do that kind of work. So, I've worked on security sector reform programs, policing, community safety, defense. And then over the years, I got more involved in sort of women's rights and inclusion work within that field. So I did a bit of work on girls education in conflict settings, and then have moved into working particularly on women’s peace and security. So women's participation and influence in peace building, peace processes, the security sector and looking at things like how to peace building and conflict programs contribute towards gender equality. How can programs be more gender sensitive in that space? I don't need to tell the listeners probably that military and security sector particularly is quite male dominated. So there is a need for that kind of work. And yeah, that takes me up to today pretty much. I've done most of my work for the UK government as a consultant, particularly Department for International Development and the Foreign Office. But I've also done work for other actors, like the Danish government just completed a review of their women peace and security policy and work worldwide. And I've done some work for UN agencies. And I'll shortly be joining the UK Department for International Development as a conflict specialist. Then I’ll be moving to Nigeria in March.

Ashley: To begin our conversations, we started at the beginning. How do you figure out what values are relevant to your job search? What should you take into consideration? Sophie started us off.

SS: Yeah, this is a really interesting question, because I think in my experience people take very different positions on this when it comes to what it means to pursue or live out your values at work and in your career. For some people, it means that there are certain types of organizations that they'll never work for, you know, they'll never work for a big, faceless private sector actor or they won't work for a certain government entity because they don't agree with their policies, you know, let's say the Foreign Office as opposed to another ministry. But I think I’m a pragmatist. I find opportunities where I think I can make a difference even if it's within an organization that I don't wholly support everything they do and stand for, but I think it can apply at the institutional level. So what sort of institution are you joining? Do you subscribe to what they do and how they do it? What are your kind of red lines? So, you know, I worked for a big development consultancy once that they do a lot of work that I believed in. And for me, joining them was an opportunity to be part of programs that I felt could make a real difference in different parts of the world. But the leadership had flexible ethics in some cases. And it got to a point for me where that that just went too far. And I thought I don't want myself and my professional reputation to be associated with a certain group of people's behavior. That didn't necessarily represent the whole institution, but that became kind of my red line. Other people may say they would never work for the institution. So I think it depends on how, you know, strict you are with that kind of thing. I think also, you can think about it in terms of the topic that you're working on. So you know, even in the international development field, there are areas of programming that are more politically controversial than others. I don't know if some listeners there will be in the States, obviously, there's been all the issues around banning sexual reproductive health and rights, you know, the gag rule and all that sort of thing. In the UK, and lots of other European countries, there's more funding going into like migration programs, and some of that can become politically questionable, depending on your own politics. But in practice, I think you can navigate around that depending on the exact initiative you're working on. And that's kind of how I've tended to approach it, but I have certain red lines on like a type of programming that I wouldn't want to engage with, but generally I try to take opportunities to influence people for the better, you know, but working in peace and security, I think you have to be more pragmatic because you're working with military actors, security actors. And so, you know, in the first place, you're probably somebody who is prepared to get stuck in, even if the people you're working with don't share the same values as you because you think you can do something positive. And you might feel in a certain role that actually the setup of the project or the way that your role is, you cannot have the impact that you would like to do which case those are times that I might choose to step back. I think red lines is an interesting way to think about it, but it can be very context specific. You know, in Yemen, for example, we've been having a debate about whether the UK is engagement with the Saudi-led coalition means that any respectable development actor shouldn't be working with UK funded work. Now, that's not the position that I would take. For me it depends on the team, what the objective is, you know, if there's funding going into peacebuilding, I'm happy. But for some people that's gone, that's already past their red line. So I think it's quite a personal thing, depending on what you feel you can achieve in a given project. You know, what matters to you the most. And I think the people leading the stuff that you're doing is really important as well. Do you respect those people? Do you feel there is some, you know, level of kind of core shared values? I think if the people leading your organization or your immediate team have very different values, then that can be very challenging.

Ashley: Rachel’s response was also really great.

RL: It's such a personal process. When I think about how I got involved in refugee work, it was partly because the refugee story is my own. My own family has some different layers of refugee and migration stories and it was always something that fascinated me. So even though I didn't wind up working with refugees right away, I somehow made my way there because of my own personal history and my real interest in it. And it was a nice crossover between my own story and my interest in human rights issues. So I think that when people begin thinking about how to bring their own values into the work that they do, it's worth taking the time to reflect on their own personal stories, their backgrounds, what resonates for them, and then thinking about how that might match up with their professional interests, whether it's in law or medicine or journalism or what have you. So sort of bringing your own personal story to some of the professional skills that you're interested in working on is, is one way of doing that.

Ashley: Martha also had some great thoughts about this.

MF: So, I've always worked in the NGO sector, and I think that people assume when you're coming into it, you have to be this sort of ideal person with perfect values. And if you don't have you're not kind of a super altruistic, superwoman, super charitable, and that you're not going to be the right fit. And I think it's really important to see where your values are reflected in what you're interested in. So obviously, I care about promoting women's rights, but it's also what I find gets me up in the morning in terms of what I'm interested in, I want to learn more, I want to understand more about the field. And, I think focusing only on your values might make might make it hard for you to understand exactly what you want to do. I'd focus much more on what you're interested in and what you're passionate about. And, so I would say look to what your interests are, because that's really what's going to sustain you in your career. You know, if you're interested, rather than just doing it because you think it's the right thing to do, you're more likely to get a lot out of your job and stay in that role for a lot longer.

Ashley: I think one of the things that comes up the most, and we're talking about thinking about how your values are going to intersect with your career choices, is this idea that you have to potentially sacrifice, having enough money or having the kind of lifestyle that you want to have in order to, in order to have something match with your values. And in order to have those things coalesce. And I don't necessarily think that's true. And Martha made a really good point to that end.

MF: This is actually something I'm really passionate about and I talk to my friends about it, particularly my female friends who work in the charity sector. Because, maybe controversially, although, I don't think it should be controversial. I don't think that there should be a massive clash or a massive trade off between doing something that is values led or, working in a nonprofit, or whatever it is, and, earning a living wage. Because, obviously, it's different from the private sector and other sectors because the money that you're using comes from donors or it comes from governments and therefore, the money should be used effectively to achieve the kind of change that it's meant to be used for. But that doesn't mean that there shouldn't be some kind of healthy balance between the way that the money is used and also staff being kind of more valued and having salaries that represent their skills. And, I think from my experience in the charity sector anyway, because of the fact that a lot of these, a lot of entry level or mid level roles in the charity sector are held by women, the idea that these should be somehow lower paid, and can really contribute to inequalities in the sector. And I think I really try and get my friends to really challenge this idea that just because you're working in nonprofit, and you should be kind of living day to day really struggling with your finances, and that's definitely not the case. And I think the fact that lots of people think that shows the kind of value that we put on those sorts of roles. And so, my advice would really be to young women, and particularly what coming into this industry, is know your value. And know that you're not going into the private sector, you're not going to make the bucks and you're not going to get bonuses, but make sure that you think that your salary is representative of the skills that you have and the talent that you have. And don't be afraid to ask for more if you think that you are worth more because just because you're working in a nonprofit doesn't mean you should have some kind of terribly hard lifestyle and it's not a good way for an industry to thrive, really. I had a conversation a while back with a few friends. I think it was around the time there was a big crisis in the UK a year ago around the public's perception of charities, particularly government funded charities, and how they were using their money. Which is right, it should be scrutinized. But I remember saying to friends, why should it be that charity workers have to have much lower salaries? And they said, well, you know, but nurses don't get paid a lot and named a couple of other professions that also tend to be heavily reliant on women. And I said, right, all of those people should be paid more too, it's not an either or and or. We're selling ourselves short if we act as if roles that typically fall into the hands of women should somehow be lesser valued and lesser paid, and that really fundamentally will contribute significantly to the gender pay gap. So if you care about that, then I'd say fight for your own salary.

Ashley: Sophie also had some thoughts she shared on this.

SS: I guess as I've alluded to, I think it is possible to work for quite a diverse range of organizations and still pursue your values in the specific role that you take up. It's definitely worth having, doing a bit of research on the potential organizations that are prominent in your area of work and what people who work for them or have worked for them think about the values of that organization. When I started my career, I joined an organization that I didn't know much about. I was quite young, I was early on in my career, and I was kind of ignorant to some of the reputational dynamics or what have you. And I think as time went on, I realized that some people felt that the organization had some really problematic behaviors, or it didn't live out its values, or it was really doing things that it really shouldn't do as an organization set out to try and do good. But I wasn't aware of that earlier on. So I think I would have counseled myself looking back to kind of try and chat to somebody who had worked there, who I felt was a bit similar to me. Because obviously, you might get a biased view depending on who you talk to who will just say all this organization is great. But, if you can find someone who's kind of like-minded as much as you can judge that from someone you may not know that well, that's a good way to get a feeling for what that organization stands for and whether you feel within that organization, even if you don't sign up to everything they believe and do, you can make a difference and that the pressures you'll face won't be too compromising. I think that's another thing to think about. I've worked in the private sector quite a lot in development and I think some organizations are much more commercially minded than others. So that's something else to be aware of. To what extent is business growth the main priority above delivering quality work? That's always an important question. I think talking to people in there or who know the sector is always really valuable people who've been around a while and can give you a bit of advice.

Ashley: Rachel had a lot of wisdom to share on this.

RL: That's a really tough question and it depends on how much money you have coming with you from family or savings because one has to have a certain level of financial privilege to make choices to work in a long internship or in a job that doesn't pay very well. But I think that in the beginning of one's career, even with some debt from undergraduate or graduate school, it makes sense to begin exploring an area of work that really draws you that reflects your values, regardless of how much income you earn. Because if you're able to talk with people who are on that path that that you're interested in, you'll see that they put time in in some places that didn't pay very much when they first got going, and that's totally fine. And I think it's worth it if you want to find that balance between working in a job that reflects your values and making enough money to survive. And, in some ways, for a job like my own that involves international human rights issues, one way of managing that is to go overseas where your costs are lower, where you can probably accrue some savings and you can build up a resume working internationally, which is always viewed as the first step toward working in an area of international humanitarian or other forms of work that on a global level. 

Ashley: So maybe you've started working on maybe you're in your first or your second or your third job, or maybe you're even mid career and suddenly realize, actually, when you thought that your 9-5 could just be whatever, and that you would be fulfilled outside of work. Maybe that wasn't as true as you thought it was back then. If you realize that what you do is not fulfilling and that doesn't work for you. What do you do then? Sophie started us off. 

SS: That can be really tricky because it’s quite demoralizing I think to find yourself in that situation. I think in terms of whether something's fulfilling or not, it probably depends on what value that work might have in the future. I mean, this not necessarily just to do with values, but I was in quite a few project management type roles in the early stage of my career. Sometimes I found that really frustrating because I'm quite an academic person. And I felt demoralized sometimes you know, turning out budgets and contracts and thinking is this what I dreamt to do in my life? But in that case, I think sometimes it's good to step back and say, okay, this is not exactly what I want to do forever. But could it give me skills or experience that I can use to do something I'm more passionate about in future? I later realized in that case that project management skills were really valued in the workplace in general. And so when I moved into a more intellectually stimulating role, and I was doing more like research or evaluations or working on policy, the fact that I knew how budgets works, I could design a work plan, like those skills were really valued by my future employer, and I think made me more effective team member. So that was the time that I wasn't fulfilled. But, if you keep the long game in mind, you might decide to stick out a bit longer because you're actually developing some skills that could keep you in good stead. I think your reputation is really valuable as well and when you prove yourself to be a reliable colleague, a good team player, someone people like to work with, someone who's pleasant to work with and who is willing to support their colleagues. I think those qualities do stand out to people, and that can stand you in good stead. I think that's another valuable thing you can get from those roles that you feel stuck in is that you can build relationships with people that you really respect and  find opportunities to get to know them to work directly with them, to show them that you have more to offer, perhaps in the role that you're stuck in and it's a long term investment doesn't always reap results immediately. But it does, I think help to build your credibility with people that you respect. So I think it's good to identify those team members or partners or wherever that you think yes, these are the kind of people that I'd like to work with long term. And how do you kind of build your connections with them.

Ashley: Martha had some great ideas that she shared with us around this issue.

MF: It's a tricky one. I think a lot of people come into the industry that I work in anyway, and are surprised that there's maybe more trade offs than you'd like to think exist. It's an imperfect industry as all industries are. And, you know, a good example I've seen people be shocked by is where charities are able to get their money from. I know a lot of people are uncomfortable with the kinds of donors that support charities and and I totally get that. It's really tricky when you're in a world where there’s huge inequalities, massive crises in different areas and huge amounts of need. And lots of big developmental institutions are going god, we really need money to face these issues. So that means that they might often take funding from donors that would surprise the average person. That's an institutional and a strategic decision, though. I think I've reached a point where my attitude towards it is that I have to work out what I'm comfortable with as an individual. So if you find day to day that what you're doing in your job is opposed to what you value, it means that you're not feeling fulfilled, it means that you feel unhappy in what you're doing. That's really important. You know, you do it 40 hours a week plus overtime. So you need to make sure that what you're going in to day to day is something that you're happy with. And I think what I found really helpful in my career is to think about where my red lines are, what the things are that I'm willing to concede on and what the things are that I'm not. That can lead to some really tricky decisions in your career. And, it might be that those red lines change over the course of your career, you might become more of a pragmatist, or you might become more principled, you know, you can't know where it's going to go. But either way, I think the fundamental bottom line is feeling satisfied and feeling happy with what you're doing and feeling confident enough to stick to your guns on the stuff that matters to you.

Ashley: Rachel also gave us some potential solutions here.

RL: If you're starting out your career or if you're part-way through your career and feeling like you're not getting what you want out of it, confront that and take a risk and you will probably land on your feet, even if it takes you on a windy road. You will land on your feet if you have the strength to take a risk and identify the things that you really believe in, and work your way in that direction. If you are in a place where you can even begin to think about trying to make sure that your values align with your work, then you have a certain degree of privilege. And so recognize that and acknowledge that you have a bit of a bubble and you can really, sort of hold on to that and give yourself the space that you need to step out and particularly to move out of a job that you just don't feel good about and get to a place where you are working your values. 

Ashley: That’s a really great way to think about it and I think it’s cultivating an attitude of gratitude. Walking through life with that kind of gratitude with things we often take for granted or expect to receive.

Rachel: Yeah, I love it, I need a t-shirt.

Ashley: And then you have to think one step further. What if it's not just that I've changed my mind about whether I need to be fulfilled professionally? What if it's that, what I'm doing is actively opposed to what I value. And this can manifest in a lot of ways. And it's not necessarily true that when you started out, your job was actively opposed to your values. This can be because of an institutional realignment of some sort. This can be because a change in political climate means that maybe the the overton window has been dragged in one direction or the other and you no longer feel comfortable with something that wasn't even in question when you started your job. There are a lot of reasons you might end up in a position that means actively supporting something that's opposed to what you believe. So we asked the women we interviewed what do I do then? Rachel had a great personal experience with someone who was in this situation.

RL: That's a tough position to be in, but I actually just got a call from a woman who is exactly in that position. She was working for many years in a government agency that now has taken a turn in a direction that she feels very uncomfortable with. And she's decided that she's going to take that break. And so what she did was take the very brave step of leaving it behind, and beginning the process of figuring out how to take those years of experience that she has, in a particular thematic area, and flip over to the non-governmental side and engage the nonprofit organizations, the think tanks, the advocacy groups that are involved in that area and bring her technical expertise, which is deep, and her understanding of how government works in that area, which is extremely important for advocacy groups and sort of say, ‘here I am - what can I do? How can I help? How can I be a part of the fight against this particular government agency that's gone, in her opinion, in the wrong direction. So it's really like starting fresh, but recognizing that you have a lot to bring to the table. So that's, that might be one way of thinking about it, you may feel bad about the direction that your organization or your company has gone in, think about how you can take that and bring that to a company or a sector that really would value the experience that you bring to the table and be impressed that you've confronted and addressed your own concerns about the environment that you currently work in, and are saying, ‘hey I want to contribute.’ 

Ashley: Sophie had great ideas here as well.

SS: I think with values it's a bit more complicated. It probably just depends How far you feel those values are really drifting away from your own? In which case, yeah, you might just need to get out whatever it takes to somewhere else where you can just take stock of how you move forward.

Ashley: Martha gave us some great food for thought.

MF: I guess it depends on whether the context in which you're operating can change, right. So if you're not feeling fulfilled in your role, I like to think that hopefully lots of managers and directors in different organizations are willing to hear that and willing to hear why it might be. I think if you find yourself opposed to the fundamentals of the organization that you're working in the values that they portray in their work the decisions that they make strategically, then that can't change and I think you should have the confidence to maybe think about moving on from an organization like that. If it means that you're sacrificing a lot of your time doing something that you're not comfortable with. 

Ashley: So, it’s all well and good to hear someone talk to you about their advice for when you're in an unfulfilling role, but I wanted to know, and yeah me personally, if these women had ever worked in a role that was unfulfilling. Had they ever personally been in a position to think, ‘Wow, I just can't go to work tomorrow because this is so completely not what I want to be doing with my life.’ And I asked how they handled it. Martha started us off.

MF: I have definitely had roles where I felt not necessarily unfulfilled, but like I hadn't ended up exactly where I wanted to be, doing exactly what I wanted to do. Anyone who works in the charity sector will know restructures in organizations are very common and sometimes they're totally necessary because you need to make organizations more efficient, but that can also mean that sometimes your role changes in the charity sector. And I had a point earlier in my career where a restructure meant that my role became something that I guess wasn't in my long term career plan. It wasn't it didn't fit into where I thought I was wanting to go. But I also didn't really know where I wanted to go. So, I had to take a real hard look at myself and what I was doing day to day and say, ‘is this what I want to wake up and do every morning?’ And I realized the answer was no, but  what is it that I want to do? And one of the most effective things I've found for dealing with that crisis of not knowing exactly what to do next, is to try and work out what all of the different opportunities that are out there. I find bizarrely trawling through job advertisements really helpful and looking at like lists of other tasks that I could be doing and thinking ‘would I rather do that than what I'm currently doing?’ And nd I found that that really helped me get to a point where I was really sure about what I wanted to do, which is advocacy, as I said earlier, so I've kind of managed to pivot my way back into that line of work. It took a lot of self reflection and really understanding what other kinds of roles could look like and involve, for me to get there. And, it won't always work out the first time, I think people will often jump from roles where they don't feel fulfilled into something else just because they want to leave it. But I think my sense is that lots of people eventually end up in the positions that they want to be in doing the work that they want to do and it just might take a bit of time.

Ashley: Sophie’s story definitely resonates with all of us.

SS: I experienced a bit of that in one of my first jobs when I realized the reputation some of the leaders in the organization had and the way they behaved. And I thought, in that instance, I just decided I don't want people to associate me with it. So I just need to move on as soon as possible to another role. And I got offered a job in a big four consulting company, which was not my dream, to be honest, because to me, it is important that I work with people who have a shared sense of purpose and what they want to achieve. And I think it was such a mix of people in that big company that I didn't really feel that sense of everybody working towards a shared good or shared mission, but it was an opportunity for me to kind of get out of a more toxic place where I felt the values really were too far, too contrasting or really not being lived out. So I just took any chance to kind of take a step away from that and then reevaluate, how I could move from there to, I suppose, where I am now where I'm in a place that I feel confident I can represent what they stand for and I feel that they have integrity.

Ashley: I’m sure a lot of people can also relate to Rachel’s experience.

RL: I had a position that on paper I loved. But I knew that I didn't want to keep going with it. I was working at a civil rights law firm and doing litigation. And I love the underlying principles and values of the work. But, I really didn't like litigation. I felt really constrained by that. And I couldn't see myself as a partner in the firm. It just wasn't where I saw my future. And so I did the basics, which was I looked around for work, I brushed up my resume, I got out there and thought about ‘what did I love about the pieces of work that I had and how could I apply that in a more creative way?’ And nothing really stuck. So I did something kind of radical. My husband is a journalist and we just said, let's just leave. I was in New York at the time. Let's just leave New York and we'll go for a year and we'll go somewhere interesting and we'll see what happens. So we picked up we did not have kids at the time, and we moved to Istanbul, Turkey. And when I got there, I thought, ‘oh, well, I'll just be able to find work easily with some nonprofit.’ Well, easier said than done. I could not find a position. I was not a fluent Turkish speaker. And I think people were a little bit skeptical or suspicious and they thought ‘who is this American woman who just landed here? And, why should we hire her?’ So instead, what developed was that we happened to move in next door to a small center for migrants, that was providing some financial assistance and medical care. And a group of us began volunteering with them as lawyers to provide some basic legal advice to them about the UN process that they had to go through, an asylum process run by the UN. And luckily, that process was being run in English. And I was able to take that thirst for doing something really creative with the law, and pick up my old interest in refugee issues and start up a clinic to provide legal assistance to refugees in Turkey. And I was able to build on some of that networking that I did when I first got there to find an organizational home for the project because in order to get funding for it, we needed to be adopted by a local nonprofit organization. And we got their buy in and we got our first funding within the first year. And that organization has now spun off on its own and it is still providing legal aid to, really the millions of refugees that are now in Turkey today. So it was a chance to take the experience that I had, where I knew that I wasn't really fulfilled because there wasn't the creative energy that I was hoping for, move over to an entirely different environment, and then figure out slowly how to take that creative energy, take the themes of refugees, migration, human rights and legal assistance, and kind of package that all together. So it was a risk but it was a risk that really paid off for me and helped me reframe the future of my career.

Ashley: I think people often talk about finding settlement in fields outside of your professional one. So maybe working towards your values through volunteering, or maybe through a religious organization or a social organization. And really just centering that thing outside of your nine to five job because maybe you just don't have the energy for advocacy or for organizing or for nonprofit work in general. We asked our interviewees what their thoughts were on finding this kind of fulfillment outside of work. Sophie gave us some excellent things to think about here. 

SS:I think that's a really good question. Because like we've alluded to, especially early on in your career you rarely get to work exactly where you want to be in terms of values and things you're passionate about, and you believe in. Although as I said, I think you can always gain something from those experiences. I do volunteering in my own time, I think especially I would say to those listeners, because I've got young children now. You've got time, more time than you realize. Don't just work all the time. Because when if you have a family, it's difficult to be as active in your community. But I think when you're not in that phase or even if you are, there's still things you can do. But I think especially early in your career, you've got more time to get out there and do things whether it's, activism, joining, becoming a trustee or doing volunteering for local charities. It can be also exciting to get involved with charities or initiatives that are aligned with your work somehow. My field, there's always refugee initiatives out there where you can also I think, gain and enrich yourself in understanding people's life experiences who've been refugees or who've gone through challenges and I think all of that is really beneficial, makes you a more rounded person. As well as obviously giving you like you said that fulfillment that even if you weren't not achieving that in your work right now, you are working towards your broader values in your whole life. That's definitely really important to me, I think it can be really rewarding. And sometimes at work, in fact, even if you're working in a field where you're trying to make a difference or you know, be driven by good change in the world, you're not always working with a super diverse cross section of people. So I think maintaining a broader circle or volunteering in your personal life can help you to remember why you want to work for social change in the first place, or you know, wherever it is that you're engaging in. So I would definitely that is a great thing to do.

Ashley: Martha made a really excellent point that I really think is so important when we’re talking about volunteering.

MF: The reality is that not everyone can work in the nonprofit sector. And not everyone should, right. I think there is so much value to be gained from people looking at the skills that they have because of the jobs that they do in other sectors and thinking about how that can be applied to a volunteering role. Nonprofits have have all of these needs and if you can find a way on top of your 9 to 5, which is not the easiest way to do it, to have a volunteering role that makes you feel fulfilled, then I think do it. And, I think, my one word of caution with that kind of approaches are that volunteers are hugely valuable, some charities are completely dependent on them. And it's amazing that people give up so much of their time on top of their jobs. But I would always just try and make sure that one, you're you're volunteering role is giving what you have to a charity rather than trying to carve something out for yourself. I guess that you shouldn't try and pivot and get new skills in the charity sector. If you really have something valuable that they can already use like if you're a great finance person offer that, because charities are very stretched and staff are often very overworked. And the only instances I've seen where volunteering hasn't worked very well, is in instances where volunteers haven't understood that and seeing that they need to be a kind of addition rather than an additional burden to an organization. Make sure that you are offering to do things that the charity needs. So I worked with a charity who needed a social media presence and, having use social media probably more than some of the other people in the organization, I offered to help do that. So listen to them and their needs rather than coming in there with with your ideas about what you want to do, because really, you should be led by the charity.

Ashley: Rachel gave us some excellent tips on this.

RL: If you feel that you really are unfulfilled in your day today, then the best thing to do is think about where you might want to direct your energy to work on something that is really meaningful. So that could be volunteering with a nonprofit that is local, it could be working with some kind of thematic issue that you really enjoy. It could mean taking two weeks off and volunteering somewhere in a location that reflects your values. And then sort of balancing out the fact that the work that you do on the day-to-day is not that exciting, but your side projects are super fulfilling. And you may find that the work that you do on the side actually is a bridge to shifting your career because you'll be making connections, you'll be building skills, you'll be refining your understanding of where you want to be working and how you want to be doing it in what kind of context while you're volunteering. And I think getting that hands on experience of what the day-to-day could look like in a career that is meaningful for you is a really critical step to take.

Ashley: Finally, we asked a personal question. We asked these women what sacrifices or hard choices they made so that their career aligns better with their values. That's a really tough one because the whole point of the question is that you have sacrificed something. And I think most people do sacrifice whether it is financial or whether it's being able to live in a place that they want to live or whether it's to have the kind of growth potential that they're interested in, or whether it's a it's some kind of intangible benefit they're losing out on because they've made the choice that actually no, this value of mine contradicts with that  choice or this value of mine is better served with another choice. Sophie had a great answer here.

SS: I think probably for me it would be when I left that the Big Four company. My dad did say, ‘are you sure you want to do that?’ So I was working for this huge prestigious company that had a great pension, private insurance. I know for the American listeners, that's more standard. But in the UK, most people don't get private health care with their employer. So it was all the kind of practical benefits that your parents, if they're like mine, were concerned about. And so I suppose in some sense, I made a sacrifice in terms of salary, in terms of staff benefits, in terms of job stability. When I joined a much smaller company that was socially minded I sacrifice those things, but ultimately I felt it was more important to me. I didn't see a future for myself long term in that company because I knew that if I was going to move forward, I would be expected to deliver on more of the kind of corporate side that I just personally, I don't criticize people doing that, but it just didn't motivate me personally. Because I am quite driven by what I believe in. That was the sacrifice I made, but I don't regret it really, because I've been able to do more of what I believe in. And I find that immensely motivational as opposed to just kind of feel like I'm withering away somewhere where I have a good staff package but ultimately can't get behind what I'm doing. And now I'm joining the government so don't know if I’ll experience any sacrifices. I see that as an opportunity to really influence in a different way, you know, to be within the British government system. That will be exciting, but I may sacrifice on my own independence I recently joined the political party in the UK, I won't be allowed to do any, anything related to that. So I'll have to see long term whether to me, that becomes too much of a sacrifice. I don't know. Sometimes I think about getting involved in politics and future so I'll just have to reevaluate that in the years to come.

Ashley: Martha had some greats thought that she shared on sacrifices she’s made in the past.

MF: So I was talking earlier about when I was part of a restructure that meant that I ended up in a role that wasn't exactly where I wanted to be. And I made the decision at that point to take what I would tactically call a sidestep into another role in another organization that was maybe slightly more junior than what I was doing before. It wasn't a step up essentially. Because I knew that to get to where I wanted to be in my job, and I think to have a role that really represented my values more I needed to do that. I knew at that time, for instance, that I really wanted to have a job  where I felt closer to the impact that my organization was having. I didn't feel really far removed. I think that's important for some people and I knew that I wanted to be working somewhere that was supporting more grassroots work. So feel less like I was just sitting in head office and running campaigns then enabling grassroots actors to run their own campaigns. And, because I was so passionate about about working in that way I made that decision and took a different role but wasn't necessarily like super strategic, but actually in the long term has meant that I've been able to build up a skill set and a bank of experience that has taken me to the jobs that I now do where I'm, you know, massively fulfilled and massively happy with what I'm working on.

Ashley: Rachel had a really interesting perspective on this question that I found really valuable.

RL: I actually don't really feel the I've made tremendous sacrifice, I suppose, on an objective level, I'd given up income. I could be working at a law firm and making a partner salary right now. And that would be significantly more than what I get paid now. But, I don't think that's really a sacrifice because I feel as though every day that I'm working, and some of those days are really hard and exhausting and frustrating. But, every day that I'm contributing to the work that I do, I feel like I'm working toward positive change. And it may sound like a cliche, but it's really priceless. I wouldn't want to live my life any other way for any amount of money. So, to me, there hasn't emotionally been tremendous sacrifice and I have felt really so satisfied and so happy that after this journey to get here, this is where I am. And I expect that it may change, let's see where it goes from here. But until now, I do feel like I've taken steps in the direction that make me feel every day that my values align that with the work that I do.

Ashley: That’s a really valuable perspective to be able to say ‘I don't feel like I sacrifice that much. I feel like it has not been a martyrdom to have lived this life that aligns with my values.’ Because I think a lot of the stories we get are those sort of like, ‘well, I had to give up everything else, but at least I've kept my sort of my moral compass. Thank you all so much for joining us this month. I really appreciate it. And I really appreciate having such a great listener base that's always chiming in with questions and thoughts. And we really do value those and we share them amongst the team here. We all look at those, we all read them. So if you do have any thoughts, either in response to this episode or for upcoming episodes, we would love to hear those. And I hope this episode was useful. I have to admit that it was driven a little bit by selfishness on our part as a team. All of us are pretty early career and that can look like a lot of things. But I know for myself and certainly for Rachel, we talked about how important it is at this stage in your career, to be having a conversation around what your red lines are. What lines will you not cross? Or what is the sort of thing that you just absolutely do not want to do? Or what is the sort of thing that you absolutely have to be doing to go to bed every night and wake up energized and ready to go to work. And those are conversations that you're not necessarily encouraged to have, either in undergraduate institutions or in graduate school, or just by people who are counseling you professionally. But I do think those are questions that you have to ask yourself in order to build a kind of career that at 40 or 50, or 60, you're still going to love and we all take jobs that aren't ideal, trust me, I've been there. We all also take jobs that maybe we thought were going to be one thing and turn out to be completely different. And I think that by having these hard lines on either side, by having set your boundaries in advance, it's going to become a lot clearer when you need to make those career decisions and perhaps make professional moves. As we move forward, next month is going to be an episode about diplomacy. We are hopefully going to be interviewing both diplomats and diplomatic spouses. These are questions that came from listener comments over the summer while we were on hiatus. And I really think it's a crucial dichotomy to look at both, what it's like to be a woman at an embassy because you're the ambassador or a diplomat there and what it's like to be the spouse of a diplomat and to be a woman at an embassy for that reason. I hope you all enjoyed this episode. Please don't forget to subscribe, rate and review this podcast on whatever app you use. That helps other people find us It raises us up in the rankings. It is one of those most helpful things you can do. While you're at it, please subscribe to the Women in Foreign Policy newsletter which is available on our website. If anyone has any thoughts, anyone they'd be interested in us interviewing whether as part of an episode series or as a one off, please let us know. You can follow our organization's Twitter @WomeninFP. And if the work we're doing means a lot to you, please consider supporting us via PayPal at LucieGoulet. Or on Patreon at Women in Foreign Policy. We are an all volunteer team. So that means your support goes even further. We love the work we do and couldn't do it without listeners like you. Thank you all so much and we'll talk to you again soon. Bye!